Discussion:
Issues for the disabled
(too old to reply)
Tim
2009-05-26 05:40:01 UTC
Permalink
I am a consultant in the field of construction for the disabled, the
elderly, the injured. May I ask a favor?

I would appreciate it if anyone who considers themselves part of one or more
of the above groups to reply, either personally or to the group, with the
issues that affect you and your life. I specialize in consulting in home
modification issues, hotel/motel accessibility, retail store layout for
accessibility, restaurants, state of the art assistive technologies, etc.
Tell me your problems and I can push agendas. If you have any friends with
problems, please let them know, too.

Write me privately at ***@sbeglobal.net

Thanks
Tim Conde
Cheryl
2009-05-26 08:10:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
I am a consultant in the field of construction for the disabled, the
elderly, the injured. May I ask a favor?
I would appreciate it if anyone who considers themselves part of one or
more of the above groups to reply, either personally or to the group, with
the issues that affect you and your life. I specialize in consulting in
home modification issues, hotel/motel accessibility, retail store layout
for accessibility, restaurants, state of the art assistive technologies,
etc. Tell me your problems and I can push agendas. If you have any friends
with problems, please let them know, too.
Thanks
Tim Conde
The big thing for any home or vehicle modifications is COST.
Tim
2009-05-26 20:48:02 UTC
Permalink
Cheryl, do you feel that the cost is excessive compared to a non-disabled
persons home remodeling? In other words, are you saying that your home (or
vehicle) changes cost more just because yiou are disabled? Or is the work of
a highly complex nature that just costs more? Not all home modifications are
big bucks. Adding grab bars, changing light switches to large paddles,
widening some doors and adding a bidet toilet seat can make a huge
difference. There are always expensive ways to do things, but with some
imagination and a real emphasis on how you use your home , you can make
cheap changes that will make a world of difference.

Tim
Post by Cheryl
Post by Tim
I am a consultant in the field of construction for the disabled, the
elderly, the injured. May I ask a favor?
I would appreciate it if anyone who considers themselves part of one or
more of the above groups to reply, either personally or to the group,
with the issues that affect you and your life. I specialize in consulting
in home modification issues, hotel/motel accessibility, retail store
layout for accessibility, restaurants, state of the art assistive
technologies, etc. Tell me your problems and I can push agendas. If you
have any friends with problems, please let them know, too.
Thanks
Tim Conde
The big thing for any home or vehicle modifications is COST.
Cheryl
2009-05-27 07:55:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
Cheryl, do you feel that the cost is excessive compared to a non-disabled
persons home remodeling? In other words, are you saying that your home (or
vehicle) changes cost more just because yiou are disabled? Or is the work of
a highly complex nature that just costs more? Not all home modifications are
big bucks. Adding grab bars, changing light switches to large paddles,
widening some doors and adding a bidet toilet seat can make a huge
difference. There are always expensive ways to do things, but with some
imagination and a real emphasis on how you use your home , you can make
cheap changes that will make a world of difference.
Tim
It ABSOLUTELY costs more than normal home repairs. I know. I have now owned
4 homes and have rehabed 3 of the 4. It wasn't until the 4th home I became
unable to handle any sort of rehab other than perhaps putting up grab rails,
dropping a plastic shower seat into the tub, etc. And, BTW, hand rails truly
capable of supporting a person's weight aren't cheap. Widening doorways
isn't costly? You must live in a different world than I do. I would need to
widen a minimum of 4 doorways and enlarge my bathroom to the tune of 15-20K
unless you know of some handymen/women who are willing to come over and do
all of this work for free. I *might* be able to get away without widening my
bathroom, although that's highly doubtful if I want to be truly independent.
Realistically my bathroom would require 2 closet knockouts or perhaps
turning one bedroom into part bathroom, part laundry room. Then I would need
a roll-in or transfer shower. Right now, what I have, which really isn't
gong to work for much longer, is a transport chair pulled around the home
via a rope just so it can fit through doorways, and even that won't fit
through my bathroom doorway, so I have to pull my transport chair to the
bathroom doorway, pull a walker out of the linen closet, and drag myself to
use the bathroom facilities.

Now info about little modifications is helpful. Many/most disabled people
have probably already come up with their own ideas--necessity being the
mother of invention--but there's always hope for newer, inexpensive,
realistic work arounds. Unfortunately, though, once you start talking about
actually widening doorways, knocking out walls, replacing
toilets/showers/sinks, etc. Yeah, it's too costly. A plain old toilet is a
LOT cheaper than a bidet. A plain old tub is a LOT cheaper than setting up a
roll in shower or a shower with a transfer/drop seat. Plus, you have to
realize what may sound like a small sum probably doesn't to an audience of
people whose incomes are now significantly less and already overburdened by
medical costs and all of the so-called inexpensive modifications to their
lives.

All you need to do is take a house built in the 50s and tell a contractor
what you need in order for someone in a wheelchair to be truly
independent--larger shower, widened doorways, laundry upstairs, etc. See
what it costs and then you'll know. Then, ask someone who builds new homes
to provide you with the same items. My experience was the cost was
substantially cheaper to make the changes to a new home rather than remodel
an older home. Of course, the cost of a new home is too much any disabled
people I know.

I won't go into much discussion about the cost of vehicle modification. All
you need to do is talk to any mobility dealer to get an idea about the
exhorbiant costs of vehicle modification. I'm not saying the dealers are
sticking it to disabled people, although, who knows, maybe they are. I'm
just saying the cost to gain true vehicle independence is astronomical. What
I will say is I paid nearly 3K for a clip on hoist for my powerchair. And,
even now, I cannot do this by myself. I am reliant on another person to take
my chair to and from the back of the van to the passenger side of the car.
Plus, I cannot afford something that would be truly beneficial to me, like a
seat that lowers and lifts me into the van. As is, I have to us the grab bar
to pull myself in, which harms my physical condition.

That's the trouble really. There are too many variables to discuss when
talking about modifications. There are so many different disabilities,
varying degrees of these disabilities, urban/rural settings, familial
assistance, do-it-yourself assistance, financial abilities, etc. etc. etc.
It's not something anyone can sum up in a neat little package.
Post by Tim
Post by Cheryl
Post by Tim
I am a consultant in the field of construction for the disabled, the
elderly, the injured. May I ask a favor?
I would appreciate it if anyone who considers themselves part of one or
more of the above groups to reply, either personally or to the group,
with the issues that affect you and your life. I specialize in
consulting in home modification issues, hotel/motel accessibility,
retail store layout for accessibility, restaurants, state of the art
assistive technologies, etc. Tell me your problems and I can push
agendas. If you have any friends with problems, please let them know,
too.
Thanks
Tim Conde
The big thing for any home or vehicle modifications is COST.
Tim
2009-06-01 18:21:03 UTC
Permalink
There is a lot to answer here, but I will try... (see below)
Post by Cheryl
Post by Tim
Cheryl, do you feel that the cost is excessive compared to a non-disabled
persons home remodeling? In other words, are you saying that your home (or
vehicle) changes cost more just because yiou are disabled? Or is the work of
a highly complex nature that just costs more? Not all home modifications are
big bucks. Adding grab bars, changing light switches to large paddles,
widening some doors and adding a bidet toilet seat can make a huge
difference. There are always expensive ways to do things, but with some
imagination and a real emphasis on how you use your home , you can make
cheap changes that will make a world of difference.
Tim
It ABSOLUTELY costs more than normal home repairs. I know. I have now
owned 4 homes and have rehabed 3 of the 4. It wasn't until the 4th home I
became unable to handle any sort of rehab other than perhaps putting up
grab rails, dropping a plastic shower seat into the tub, etc. And, BTW,
hand rails truly capable of supporting a person's weight aren't cheap.
I hope you are not saying that people charge you more because you are
handicapped. If you are saying that the nature of the work is generally more
costly than "normal home repairs", I'd agree. Grab bars are not that bad,
$25 to $30 at Home Depot, and guaranteed. Grab Bars have to be able to
support 250# minimum. That is the code. If you need more, they become
expensive only since most people do not make them.


Widening doorways isn't costly? You must live in a different world than I
do. I would need to
Post by Cheryl
widen a minimum of 4 doorways and enlarge my bathroom to the tune of
15-20K unless you know of some handymen/women who are willing to come over
and do all of this work for free.
I guess it depends on what you mean by expensive. The materials are maybe
$100 a door, that's a prehung door, shims and primed casing PLUS labor.
"Enlarging a bathroom" can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. Simply
moving walls to create more space isn't a big deal. If you are talking about
removing a tub and shower and creating an accessible roll-in shower with all
kinds of bells and whistles, yes, that can be costly.
Post by Cheryl
I *might* be able to get away without widening my bathroom, although
that's highly doubtful if I want to be truly independent. Realistically my
bathroom would require 2 closet knockouts or perhaps turning one bedroom
into part bathroom, part laundry room. Then I would need a roll-in or
transfer shower. Right now, what I have, which really isn't gong to work
for much longer, is a transport chair pulled around the home via a rope
just so it can fit through doorways, and even that won't fit through my
bathroom doorway, so I have to pull my transport chair to the bathroom
doorway, pull a walker out of the linen closet, and drag myself to use the
bathroom facilities.
The shame is that homes have NEVER been designed to accomodate accessible
living. Universal design falls short since "one-size-fits-all" doesn't work
for anything. Person A has needs that person B doesn't. But is does sound as
though you need doors widened, or narrower assistive devices.
Post by Cheryl
Now info about little modifications is helpful. Many/most disabled people
have probably already come up with their own ideas--necessity being the
mother of invention--but there's always hope for newer, inexpensive,
realistic work arounds. Unfortunately, though, once you start talking
about actually widening doorways, knocking out walls, replacing
toilets/showers/sinks, etc. Yeah, it's too costly. A plain old toilet is a
LOT cheaper than a bidet.
A good option, which we have done a lot of is bidet toilet seats. They can
be had pretty inexpensively and do a great job. They heat the seat, heat the
water, warm air dry, etc. You hook them to the toilet supply line, plug it
in and they heat the water, everything, They are great for males and
females, and like I say, we've done a lot of them.

A plain old tub is a LOT cheaper than setting up
Post by Cheryl
a roll in shower or a shower with a transfer/drop seat.
No question that a roll in shower costs money. A transfer bench were you can
slide from outside the tub into the tub is a good option with a suitable
showerhead and grab bars.
Post by Cheryl
Plus, you have to
realize what may sound like a small sum probably doesn't to an audience of
people whose incomes are now significantly less and already overburdened
by medical costs and all of the so-called inexpensive modifications to
their lives.
There are sources of money that can address your needs and help. We have
done a lot with the Independent Living Centers that deal with people with
disabilities who want to remain as indenendent as possible. They get grants
to make changes to bathrooms, widen doors, etc.
Post by Cheryl
All you need to do is take a house built in the 50s and tell a contractor
what you need in order for someone in a wheelchair to be truly
independent--larger shower, widened doorways, laundry upstairs, etc. See
what it costs and then you'll know. Then, ask someone who builds new homes
to provide you with the same items. My experience was the cost was
substantially cheaper to make the changes to a new home rather than
remodel an older home. Of course, the cost of a new home is too much any
disabled people I know.
Oh, agreed. As a contractor, designer, builder, I would love it if people
came to me with a disabled-friendly house. One of our current project is
that of rebuilding a 1950's house that the people want to keep all the
design elements of the 1950's house but transform it into an accessible
design. Yes, it does cost money to do it. Would it be cheaper to build new?
I don't know. Here in Northern California, with all the fees we have to pay
before we even break ground (park fees, road impact fees, school fees, plus
engineering, soil testing, and on and on), we can have $60K in a house
pretty easily before we turn the first shovel of dirt.
Post by Cheryl
I won't go into much discussion about the cost of vehicle modification.
All you need to do is talk to any mobility dealer to get an idea about the
exhorbiant costs of vehicle modification. I'm not saying the dealers are
sticking it to disabled people, although, who knows, maybe they are.
I can't speak for cars. I do know that the reason cars are cheap (relatively
speaking) is that they are built on an assemble line, hundreds of cars a
day. Anytime you take a car and rip the insides out and start doing unique
modifications it becomes a custom car and the price goes up quick. Most
custom cars I have seen that have been seriously modified for the disabled
cost $100K or more.
Post by Cheryl
I'm just saying the cost to gain true vehicle independence is
astronomical.
What I will say is I paid nearly 3K for a clip on hoist for my powerchair.
And, even now, I cannot do this by myself. I am reliant on another person
to take my chair to and from the back of the van to the passenger side of
the car. Plus, I cannot afford something that would be truly beneficial to
me, like a seat that lowers and lifts me into the van. As is, I have to us
the grab bar to pull myself in, which harms my physical condition.
That's the trouble really. There are too many variables to discuss when
talking about modifications. There are so many different disabilities,
varying degrees of these disabilities, urban/rural settings, familial
assistance, do-it-yourself assistance, financial abilities, etc. etc. etc.
It's not something anyone can sum up in a neat little package.
I will disagree here with you as little bit. Yes, there are a myriad of
variables. No question, so does that mean you don't try? I have been doing
this many years. I found that a great many of the construction tasks I was
doing, I was doing every day. How many roll-in showers have I built? God
only knows. How many doors widened? How many door knobs have I replaced with
levers? And the list goes on and on. When I went out to do a thorough
evaluation of what a house needed, I found myself saying the same things
over and over. There are a lot of things that I do that are unique.
Naturally. Like an overhead rail transport system through the house. Or a
voice control system to control lights, change TV channels. change the
thermostst settings, open the front door, or even control the water for a
shower. Yes, I do that, too. And yes, it isn't cheap. But when that is your
only option, you do what you have to do.

I seriously wish you well.

Tim
Post by Cheryl
Post by Tim
Post by Cheryl
Post by Tim
I am a consultant in the field of construction for the disabled, the
elderly, the injured. May I ask a favor?
I would appreciate it if anyone who considers themselves part of one or
more of the above groups to reply, either personally or to the group,
with the issues that affect you and your life. I specialize in
consulting in home modification issues, hotel/motel accessibility,
retail store layout for accessibility, restaurants, state of the art
assistive technologies, etc. Tell me your problems and I can push
agendas. If you have any friends with problems, please let them know,
too.
Thanks
Tim Conde
The big thing for any home or vehicle modifications is COST.
David "Doc" Leifheit
2009-10-06 22:04:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
There is a lot to answer here, but I will try... (see below)
Post by Cheryl
Post by Tim
Cheryl, do you feel that the cost is excessive compared to a
non-disabled persons home remodeling? In other words, are you saying
that your home (or
vehicle) changes cost more just because yiou are disabled? Or is the work of
a highly complex nature that just costs more? Not all home
modifications are
big bucks. Adding grab bars, changing light switches to large
paddles, widening some doors and adding a bidet toilet seat can make
a huge difference. There are always expensive ways to do things, but
with some imagination and a real emphasis on how you use your home ,
you can make cheap changes that will make a world of difference.
Tim
It ABSOLUTELY costs more than normal home repairs. I know. I have now
owned 4 homes and have rehabed 3 of the 4. It wasn't until the 4th
home I became unable to handle any sort of rehab other than perhaps
putting up grab rails, dropping a plastic shower seat into the tub,
etc. And, BTW, hand rails truly capable of supporting a person's
weight aren't cheap.
I hope you are not saying that people charge you more because you are
handicapped. If you are saying that the nature of the work is
generally more costly than "normal home repairs", I'd agree. Grab bars
are not that bad, $25 to $30 at Home Depot, and guaranteed. Grab Bars
have to be able to support 250# minimum. That is the code. If you need
more, they become expensive only since most people do not make them.
Grab bars may only be $25 to $30, but what about the installation cost? You can't just screw them to
drywall. Depending on the house this could include cutting into the wall and fastening in supports for
the grab bar, then patching the wall. In an extreme case, it could mean opening up an entire wall just
to put in supports or bracing for the grab bars. Studs aren't often located where you need to put the
grab bar (my experience says rarely) and stud spacing varies, especially in older homes. Ideally you
have 16" or 24" on center studs, but that depends on the age of the house, how accurate the contractor
was, fixtures, electrical, etc.
Post by Tim
Widening doorways isn't costly? You must live in a different world
than I do. I would need to
Post by Cheryl
widen a minimum of 4 doorways and enlarge my bathroom to the tune of
15-20K unless you know of some handymen/women who are willing to come
over and do all of this work for free.
I guess it depends on what you mean by expensive. The materials are
maybe $100 a door, that's a prehung door, shims and primed casing PLUS
labor. "Enlarging a bathroom" can mean a lot of things to a lot of
people. Simply moving walls to create more space isn't a big deal. If
you are talking about removing a tub and shower and creating an
accessible roll-in shower with all kinds of bells and whistles, yes,
that can be costly.
I think you live in an unreal world. $100 is door plus labor? Enlarging a door opening is door,
casing, jambs, framing, possible wall repair, and could involve electrical work as well (think about how
close to the door opening many light switches are). Typical door openings are 30", you need to widen to
36". An additional 6 inches is a lot when it comes to the wall framing. But wait, wall framing is
typically 2" wider than the door, so the framed opening needs to be 38". That light switch next to the
door is really in the way, isn't it?

And don't talk about secondary doors... 2'-4" is typical. That is a lot of remodel and expense to
enlargen.

And moving walls isn't a big deal? Maybe to a contractor it isn't, but to the homeowner it is a lot of
work, and is usually a fairly expensive task. It can be an enourmous undertaking. You can't just move
a wall. There are ceilings and load bearing to consider. Plus plumbing and wiring. A simple remodel
isn't cheap, moving walls can get really expensive really quickly. And that's without upgrading any
fixtures.

Another consideration that is missed is the hallway width. You can widen a door opening, but can a
person in a wheelchair actually turn into the doorway. My hallways are 3'-6" in width and in our house
it is still difficult to turn. A typical hallway is 3'-0" in width and that is often stud to stud,
leaving a clear wall to wall of 2'-11" and a wheel space (baseboards further encroach, typically 3/8
inch each side) of 2'-10 1/4". Older houses have even narrower hallways, especially at the baseboard
where old boards can be up past 1/2" thick plus the shoe moulding of 1/2" to 3/4" on each side of the
hall. Can the wheel chair wheels really navigate that tight of space? and then make a turn into a 3'-
0" opening... actually an open door (open at 90 degrees to the opening) tightens the opening down
approximately 1 1/2" so a 3'-0" door is actually a 2'-10 1/2" opening.
Post by Tim
Post by Cheryl
Plus, you have to
realize what may sound like a small sum probably doesn't to an
audience of people whose incomes are now significantly less and
already overburdened by medical costs and all of the so-called
inexpensive modifications to their lives.
There are sources of money that can address your needs and help. We
have done a lot with the Independent Living Centers that deal with
people with disabilities who want to remain as indenendent as
possible. They get grants to make changes to bathrooms, widen doors,
etc.
While there are sources... the waiting lists can be lengthy and a person who needs accomodations now
isn't in a position to wait. Plus many programs are restrictive in the scope of what they will finance,
or the resources of the applicant. These are not always an alternative and should not automatically be
considered, which you seem to be doing.
Post by Tim
Post by Cheryl
All you need to do is take a house built in the 50s and tell a
contractor what you need in order for someone in a wheelchair to be
truly independent--larger shower, widened doorways, laundry upstairs,
etc. See what it costs and then you'll know. Then, ask someone who
builds new homes to provide you with the same items. My experience
was the cost was substantially cheaper to make the changes to a new
home rather than remodel an older home. Of course, the cost of a new
home is too much any disabled people I know.
Oh, agreed. As a contractor, designer, builder, I would love it if
people came to me with a disabled-friendly house. One of our current
project is that of rebuilding a 1950's house that the people want to
keep all the design elements of the 1950's house but transform it into
an accessible design. Yes, it does cost money to do it. Would it be
cheaper to build new? I don't know. Here in Northern California, with
all the fees we have to pay before we even break ground (park fees,
road impact fees, school fees, plus engineering, soil testing, and on
and on), we can have $60K in a house pretty easily before we turn the
first shovel of dirt.
I haven't been involved in building in North California, but I know that where I am it is often cheaper
to build new than remodel. If the remodel is extensive. However, in some places due to zoning or other
codes, remodelling may be the only option.
Post by Tim
Post by Cheryl
That's the trouble really. There are too many variables to discuss
when talking about modifications. There are so many different
disabilities, varying degrees of these disabilities, urban/rural
settings, familial assistance, do-it-yourself assistance, financial
abilities, etc. etc. etc. It's not something anyone can sum up in a
neat little package.
I will disagree here with you as little bit. Yes, there are a myriad
of variables. No question, so does that mean you don't try? I have
been doing this many years. I found that a great many of the
construction tasks I was doing, I was doing every day. How many
roll-in showers have I built? God only knows. How many doors widened?
How many door knobs have I replaced with levers? And the list goes on
and on. When I went out to do a thorough evaluation of what a house
needed, I found myself saying the same things over and over.
Because those are common items. Especially the door knobs to lever changes (although that can add up
fast depending on the number of doors). But the rest of it, it is variable since not every house needs
these basic or common changes, nor can they be done in every house. As long as the client has deep
pockets, any remodel is possible, but from a cost perspective, there is little that can be done cheaply,
and the cheapest fixes are going to be done with the cheapest materials. Quality costs, and proper
design and remodel costs.

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